Thanks for being a part of Friday discussion. You can now check out the past Friday discussions in a newly created category HERE. Continue to add your thoughts on those subjects.
For today, let’s discuss politics. You aren’t afraid of that, are you?
So let me jump in quick: I grew up in a church environment where to be a “good Christian” you had to belong to the “right” party. It was an easy decision who to vote for, because most everyone around me, or at least the vocal crowd, were Republicans. And, you weren’t just any Republican, you were a very conservative, James Dobson Republican. I’m not trying to be offensive, but that was the environment in which I lived.
In my church today, and among many of the younger generation with whom I minister, that seems to have changed. They seem far less concerned about parties (much as they are far less concerned about denominations), than they are about causes and issues.
Do you see a change? Let’s discuss politics today. Consider these specific questions. You can answer all, certain ones, or give a general answer regarding politics today and the role of the believer in the process.
Do Christians have a party of choice today? Does it matter as much to you whether someone is a Democrat or a Republican?
Can or should a Christian run for office…be involved in the political process….vote?
What about a pastor? Could a pastor serve in an elected office in your opinion?
Would you be more inclined, less inclined, or neutral on voting for a person if you heard he or she was also a Christian?
Where are we today in this culture and where is a Christian’s involvement going?
Share your thoughts…discuss…(But be kind)
Let’s talk politics…
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a pastor can be a politician , who will stand for the Christians if they don't participate
Great comments here, especially those who suggested that being a Christian in politics is like serving two masters — if the electorate claims to want something that's at odds with the Word of God, who takes precedence? Here's a suggested answer to that, which indicates why we have to follow Paul's exhortation to pray, first and foremost, for those in authority. Ultimately, regardless of party or platform, it's God who puts a leader into office. That applies, yes, even to leaders that Christians might be virulently opposed to. For whatever reason, whoever is in office is put there by God because they're the right person for that time. We The People have a responsibility to lift that leader up and ask God to reveal Himself to him or her in His way. Give me a leader who will go before the Lord on all issues and not hide behind a twisted version of "separation of church and state" as an excuse to sell out for the sake of being popular. Besides, democracy is Majority Rule, and one person plus God is always the majority.
I agree about the sovereignty of God Drew. We can't mistake that fact.
There are Christians on all sides. What's frustrating is very few people understand political platforms, read to be informed on the issues and determine what issues are important to themselves (not what the media says are the issues). Yeah, I've voted mostly Republican for over 20 years now. But I strongly believe in small government , return the power back to the people & states and giving to Charity & Churches to help the people. I know strong Christians on the Democratic side who believes our country should focus on the citizens and stay out of world politics – they are also missionaries over seas. I will never be a missionary over seas, I will always be an at home missionary.
What I'm trying to say, people need to live and vote according to what God has put in them & their values. Give to Cesar what is Cesar is more than just taxes, we need to also be informed.
Thanks Laurinda. That's the truth. We aren't educated voters anymore. Very sad.
I think that as Chistian teachers we have an obligation to teach biblical principles about the purpose of government. If we stick with principles and avoid positions, we should be able to have an enlightening and God honoring dialogue.
I agree we are missing teaching in this area.
I preached this AM from 1Tm 4:1-5 and the demonic influence in the world of ideas. I listed several ideas that are becoming popular today that I believe have a demonic source. Among those ideas was that government can solve all our problems. This was a way of teaching a principle without getting into specific positions.
Thanks Greg. This is a great encouragement.
Personally, I have never voted "party" and never understood why others do. I have always voted, always voted with a lot of prayer and thought. If the people running are actually qualified I vote because of that. I have always considered it both an honor and a responsibility to vote; what is the old saying? All it takes for evil to triumph…..Christians should be the first ones in line to vote because of our prayer life.
Should a Pastor run for office? That I would be afraid to "yes" to for the simple reason that in the past, when someone took office they were probably very honest, but after they had been in there for a while they were not so honest anymore. That reputation could do a lot of harm, and it came from having been tempted so often by so many; anyone, put in the right situation, could be guilty of anything. Why not stay with what God called them to do? In all honesty, a Pastor would be a great choice because of his position in the community, the very talents that God has cultivated in them, the gifts He has given and taught them to use would be great assets, but why take them to Washington when they are so desperately needed on this level?
Could or should a Christian…. There have been so many people in the public offices that have shown up at Church long enough for elections to go through, make sure to volunteer during this time (then disappear); i.e. People just using the Church as a political statement, I have become quite leery of anyone claiming to be a Christian. Should they? YES! We are needed in every area of the country, not just living but also in the governing of the country. Like anything else, that person should first count the cost and be sure their Christian Walk is mature enough to handle that kind of abuse. Standing up for what is right is tough, when it concerns an entire country, it's downright ugly!
I do have a question, though. What would it be like if we were able to go to the poles and make a choice based on what the candidate has to offer rather than what the "mudslinging" has left us with (the lesser of two evils?)? Just thought I'd ask.
“Do Christians have a party of choice today? Does it matter as much to you whether someone is a Democrat or a Republican?”
If a Democrat or Republican really had the country’s best interests in mind, you can call him Elvis and I would still vote for him, so yes, party names aren’t as important and potent as they used to be. People search beyond title these days. However, I still have two frustrations with both parties:
1. Democrats are generally socialist and want bigger government, less independence / capitalism. Usually they believe in things that seem contrary to the Bible and to good ‘ol fashioned principals – work for your own food, shelter, or go without, success for the successful, failure for the failure. Democrats seem to have it all backwards by punishing the business owner, the wealthy/successful, etc. and rewarding the lazy, or ‘unprivileged’. They don’t seem to believe – or trust – in personal responsibility and the motivation that comes from having to be personally responsible. Arg. (I know that I’m cookie cutting this – every Democrat is different)
2. On the flip side, while Republicans resist change, which is usually a good rule of thumb with ‘big government’ ever picking away at our freedoms, they also seem to forget that change is often mandatory. Take health care – Republicans merely focus on fighting the changes. While I don’t in any way agree with the new health care reform, and the way it was put into action, why didn’t the Republicans come up with their own version of the change that is so needed? They only ‘fight’ offensively.
“Where are we today in this culture and where is a Christian’s involvement going?”
Christians today are seen as irrevelent. We are also seen as being judgmental and critical, overly graceful and soft, and…well… boring. You ask a person, “What do you first think of when I say this word: ‘Church’?”
They yawn.
It is interesting to see how many big churches are forming and how popular they are becoming. Here in Seattle we have several, one with over 3,000 people per service. The pastor has a personal helicopter to fly to and from church. Many of these big churches preach on prosperity spirituality, and if you missed the service, you can catch it at home on TV. I think the Bride of Christ is looking into the mirror more than she is looking towards her groom. =( We seem to be swayed by every new political advertisement, by fear, and by the need for security, success and pretty things.
When we love our country more than anything, more than God, that’s a problem. I wonder when we are pursuing God and loving Him and others, how do we truly serve the world, including our fellow countrymen, and thus, our country? I think it is only when the hearts of men are changed that we will see a change in politics.
Elvis! That's awesome. Love the illustration. Thanks
I work at the polls on each election day, and many of the primaries. Christians must be part of the process from voting to holding office. If we don't we run the risk of not being heard.
The reason I tend to vote republican is the abortion issue. Seems most Dem's have a differing view than me on this.
I would chose a Christian candidate over another all else being equal.
I love seeing believers as a part of the process. Thanks James.
"Do Christians have a party of choice today?"
What does it mean to be a "Christian" in America, today? I think that term is nonsense, because it doesn't mean any one specific thing. "Christian" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. If a word has too many meanings, it becomes too diffuse or diluted to have any meaning at all, and requires further definition. That being said, if one were to assume arguendo that the meaning of the word "Christian" in this context means "Christ follower," it would be difficult to reconcile such a person's commitment to following Christ with the agenda of either of the two major political parties in the United States, today.
Christ's teachings favor financial conservatism (or "fiscal responsibility") and two different tiers of "social policy." The first tier is personal or individual social conservatism, according to which one adopts socially conservative behavior in one's own life. The second tier is "public" liberalism, according to which one does not judge others' behavior in a legalistic fashion. The second tier is the subject of some debate, because there are certainly contexts in which Christians (see prior arguendo definition) are supposed to judge the conduct of others, but such judgment is usually reserved for the purposes of determining whether someone is who or what they claim to be. Judging for the purposes of punishment is rare, and in the cases where it exists in the New Testament, the harshest punishment is often a form of shunning. The second tier of "social policy," is, therefore, more or less a liberal social policy in the political context. One might easily argue that it is, in fact, libertarian. Libertarianism basically favors the protection of life, liberty and property, and leaves to personal preference and individual freedom of choice everything else.
"Does it matter as much to you whether someone is a Democrat or a Republican?"
It only matters to the extent that it establishes a basis on which to make assumptions (based on the party's platform or stated goals and values). A responsible voter will, however, examine individually any candidate for office for whom they are considering casting a vote. Party should not, for responsible voters, be the sole criterion on which a vote is based. There are conservative, traditionalist, liberal, or progressive people in both parties. A socially liberal, fiscally progressive candidate in the Republican party, for example, is more rare than in the Democrat party, but that doesn't mean the Republicans exclude socially liberal, fiscally progressive candidates. It is, therefore, wise to see where a candidate stands on the issues before casting a vote for him.
"Can or should a Christian run for office…be involved in the political process….vote?"
A Christian, of course, can run for office, be involved in the political process and vote. He should do so, however, in accordance with Constitutional rules and principles and his conscience. Whether an individual should run for office, be involved in the political process or vote is a matter of individual preference and responsibility. If you are rationally ignorant about politics, stay home; you should not vote. If you are informed on the candidates and issues, however, and you have no other impediment to voting (conscientious objection, etc.), I see no reason why you should not vote.
"What about a pastor? Could a pastor serve in an elected office in your opinion?"
I see no reason why a pastor could not serve as an elected official, if he can perform his duties in both capacities (pastor and elected official). If he cannot perform his duties as both a pastor and as an elected official, he should choose one, and resign from the other.
As a pastor, he might appear to have a conflict of interest between what is and should be publicly permissible and what he believes is morally or spiritually right. In such cases, pastors should choose liberty in the public sphere, rather than trying to institutionalize their religious values. As Christians, we should not use government as a tool to try to legislate our values and thereby force them on people who do not share them. The freedom to reject Christ is inextricably bound up with the freedom to choose Him, and if we have not one, we have not the other.
"Would you be more inclined, less inclined, or neutral on voting for a person if you heard he or she was also a Christian?"
I would be neutral, unless they appeared to be incapable of choosing liberty in the public sphere, rather than trying to institutionalize their religious values. If a person could not conform to the guidelines I've laid out in the last paragraph of the question above, I would be less inclined to vote for him.
"Where are we today in this culture and where is a Christian’s involvement going?"
I think the answer to this question is unique to the individual. Generally speaking, Christians should be fiscally conservative and socially liberal in public affairs, in accordance with the teachings of Christ. Whether we are, as Christ followers, actually headed in that direction is anyone's guess. We can't even figure out what "Christian" means in America today, much less answer a question the answer which depends on as many variables as does the question thus posed above.
Thanks Noel for engaging in this discussion.
I agree with you Noel as far as the word/term Christian means so many different things today.
I'm not sure my words will add any clarity, but the ideas you mentioned are a great struggle of mine. As someone in politics, and at some point in my life having been at each level, there are days I step back and want to throw it all away. Is what I'm doing bringing light to the Kingdom? If I am here to be the hands and feet of God, to walk in the light of Christ, then does my presence in the halls of government what is intended?
I finished recently Volume 1 of the Philokalia. One of the concepts presented was how you hate sin when you live in it's midst. Not that anyone's vocation is absent sin, but it tends to find itself more in the political world. And we don't tend to call it that, which makes it more dangerous. After reading the Philokalia, I was tempted, very tempted, to walk away from it all and in a 21st century way, act as the writer of the book did in the 5th century- move to the desert and live an hermetic life for God.
Without specific answers to your questions, I do know that as a whole there are good people in politics who genuinely seek the good of others. There are things we do as a nation that are in line with biblical principals- they just get muddied up in execution. At the end of each day, I keep returning to the knowledge this country isn't a theocracy- and I'm actually very glad about that. So in that light, someone has to be a part of the process.
So all is not babble- I do have one specific answer to one question! According to Tennessee's constitution, ministers can't hold public office!
Blessings and thanks for bringing this to dialogue.
This is a great addition. You have walked in the circles on capital hill. I appreciate your insight and wrestling.
I have been a long time conservative, and that leads me to vote republican the majority of the time. I have to agree with Jon and cannot see the democratic party ever becoming the “moral” party as long as they have a national platform that does not staunchly defend unborn life. The democratic party’s idea of caring is food stamps and handouts. While I do not agree with everything the republican party stands for, the conservative ideas of limited government and self responsibility are the only things that will lead this country back to greatness.
I wore the earned the title of Unites States Marine and took an oath to defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. I see the far left as enemies of the constitution. The democratic party is allowing themselves to be hi-jacked by these leftist extremists. These socialistic ideas for government must be defeated. The church is in a stronger place to aid in social care when government is limited and taxes are low. Releasing the ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit of our citizens will allow Christians to find gainful employment as give as we are commanded.
I do see a shifting of the parties as one mentioned and think that a clearer definition of the parties is a good thing. While it may take compromise to govern, I cannot abide one who compromises their core beliefs. More Christians in politics may solve that problem.
Thanks for sharing. I agree. I'd love to see more believers in politics.
So ,you do not think your country is great anymore?
Jim, can't tell who you are replying to directly, but I believe our country is still a great country. One of the greatest parts is our ability to discuss issues freely. Thanks for commenting.
1) Obviously the Christian party of choice has been Republican in the past and remains to be pretty strong. But that seems to be changing among younger voters as you noted. What I see though amongst my peers is more of a party switch rather than lacking a party bias. I think that the Democratic party will become the "moral" party in my lifetime. Mainly because of "justice" issues/language, they are billing themselves as the "Party that Cares". That coupled with a younger generation that has distaste for most of what they grew up with in regards to religion or what it perceived to be the Christian way of life.
I don't think this is entirely bad, but Christians could easily just begin pushing the new "issues" and new Christian political agenda through a different party.
2) Sure, Christians should run for office. Yes, they should vote. It seems that Christians want the government to function as the church should. If we put as much energy in our efforts in the local church as we do in politics we would probably see a lot of good / kingdom stuff happen. God's chosen vehicle for His Kingdom is not government…. it's His Church. I obviously think that God can use government and believers who are part of politics.
3) I would be more inclined to pay attention to what they are supporting, etc. Almost every politician claims to be a Christian. I don't just go to any Christian church…. I'm not going to just vote for any politician that claims to be a Christian.
4) I kind of answered this in my first answer. Just like Christians made the Republican party their party. We are in danger of doing the same thing with the Democratic party in the future. Simply because we have distaste for how Christianity and politics has played out over the last 50 years or so. The Democrats would love to have the Christian vote… and the Republicans would hate to lose it. But it is, dare I say, "trendy" to be liberal in my generation and I find that we are quicker to forgive the democratic party than the republican party these days.
I have to take issue with your point number 1. If the Democrat party becomes the "moral" party it will either be because some futuristic device went off at the DNC and they all lost their mind and became conservatives or we will redefine moral to the point where it has no meaning. Yes, the Democratic party bills itself as the party that cares, but they more believe in a handout with my money and the Republican party more believes in a leg up with the recipients learning to help themselves.
It's kind of like the old saw from the Peace Corp (could be some other similar organization). If you give a man a fish he will still be hungry and dependent on you tomorrow for a fish. If you teach him to fish, you show HIM how to feed himself for the rest of his life.
Thanks for dialoguing Jon.
I think you may misunderstand my post. I don't say that because I agree with it. I say it because it's what I observe happening in culture. The moral issues that once defined the "Christian vote" seem to be changing. I've spent the last couple years on a college campus with students about 10 years younger than me. The majority of them would say they are liberal and would vote democrat, mainly because of social issues. But if you ask them how they feel issue by issue, there response is typically much different. Their generation is influenced in ways that no other generation has been, by pop culture. For the most part they do what they're told to do by MTV and the likes. Social Justice is popular. Whoever packages it the best is going to win… whether we like it or not. Why do you think every major company out there is connecting their brand to a "social justice" (water wells, aids, world hunger) issue? It sells, and that goes for politics as well.
Didn't mean to accuse. And then there is my son who would probably never vote Democratic. He is more issue oriented and moved less by "feelings". Neither my wife or I have told him how to vote, but we've expressed our opinion and encouraged him to make his own choices based on the facts and the bigger picture.
I think what younger people miss many times is what the role of government should be on the one hand. A careful reading of the Constitution would show them that most of the social programs that happen today are NOT really the role of government. It really should be up to communities, and churches and ourselves to take care of some of these needs. And secondarily I think, and this is just an opinion, that they sometimes miss who's paying for these things and the impact that large social programs have on the system as a whole. They forget that the government has NO money to do anything. All the money they have comes from you and me.
Generational differences are what prompted this post. Thanks
Didn't feel accused. I enjoy the dialogue.
You sound like a good parent and I agree with you regarding the role of government.
You are right about social justice being popular, especially with the most recent generation. They are looking for a cause.
Thanks. I agree it seems to be changing. I appreciate you joining the discussion.
Good questions Ron. It's very intriguing for me to watch the political and cultural shift and how the church is responding. I hope we respond well.
I'm glad you see it too. I feel I'm not alone.
1) I'm a democrat. I don't make too much of secret of it. Most believers I know are republicans. About 50% of them actually know why, and those are the ones I enjoy talking politics with sometimes.
2) I hope it's ok to run for office .., I plan to someday
3) As for pastors, that's a tough one. Public office is a serious deal…can you really pastor a flock if you're also pastoring a public that elected you? Seems like two masters, and unfair to your congregation.
4) Well, this is a loaded question. As a Democrat, I'll almost never vote for a republican because of fundamental differences in politics, but most loudly-christian politicians are Republicans. I probably wouldn't vote for a Democat that's openly hateful to God, and I really like candidates that are open about their faith.
5) Culture is kind of crazy right now. Everyone has a voice b/c of the internet, which has made people actually care about voting less (that used to be our "voice.") Every election, people bemoan the state of electoral involvement, but I think we really are at a critical point this time around. The loudest people are making the voting choices, which is probably not very good for the rest of us. This is probably the biggest reason I want to run for office. I might be able to get some of the kooks to vote for me, but I'm not a kook
at least, I don't think so
Thanks for joining the discussion. Good insight.
In general terms, I'd say that yes, a Christian should be more likely to vote Republican than Democrat simply because the Republican platform more closely aligns with a Christian philosophy. Having said that, I have never gone into a voting booth in all of the decades that I have been voting and pulled the party lever. I truly wish that they would do away with the ability to do that. It would at least make you take a few minutes to look at each name and perhaps think about it.
Typically I vote Republican, but I have voted for Democrats in the past. Why? First, the Republicans may not have someone running for that particular office that I think is more qualified than the Democrat. Second, if a Democrat has had an office and has done a good job and not espoused anything that would offend me as a Christian, I am more likely to vote for them, especially at the lower levels of government. Third, a person belongs to a party for a lot of different reasons, and to lump all Democrats or all Republicans into the same mold isn't quite accurate. For example, even though the Democrat party is as a whole pro-abortion, not every Democrat is and some offices aren't affected by that stance so it becomes less an issue at some levels of government.
Not all Democrats are flaming socialists and not all Republicans are God fearing conservatives. But as the parties have "evolved" over time, it's becoming more that way; which I think is important. I heard some radio commentator the other day bemoan the fact that JFK would be an outcast in the Democrat party today. Not that he would ever have been mistaken for a Republican, but the Democrat party has gone so far left that he would no longer fit in as a major person.
I think that Christians, as do all Americans, have a duty to vote and to run for office if they have that skill set and if they are so inclined. I see no issues with a Christian in office, in fact it might be a fresh change to have someone really come to power in government, state what they believe and what they're going to attempt to do unabashedly and then actually do it. Not be afraid to go to God in prayer and to let it be known that this is a part of good governance; going to the Creator for guidance.
I don't know if I would be more inclined to vote for a person just because they are a Christian. Being a Christian is important, but being able to govern is a key thing. I know a lot of very Godly men and women, but wouldn't necessarily vote for them just because of that. And there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily avowed Christians who could probably do a good job at governing.
Thanks Jon for joining in. Good thoughts on the evolving parties. I see some of that.
I don't believe Christians have a party, since there are pros and cons to all parties in the system. I know I generally vote Democrat since they tend to be more concerned about social services and aid.
Yes Christians can run, be involved, and especially vote. Since we are here, we should reasonably lobby for policies that reflect God's desire in society.
As far as a pastor serving in politics, that would depend on the position and the time requirements, since a pastor's primary focus should be on the ministry. Any time conflict should default to ministry works, not political duties.
Whether I would be affected by learning if the politician is a Christian, it appears most are as far as it's been discussed openly. I'd be concerned to how much their life reflects their faith.
I minimize my political involvement as the system is representative of the whole populace, and to avoid wasting precious time bartering with those with differing views, leaving that to those who are elected.
I don't see that our method of governing currently is even supported at all biblically, since there is no sovereign providence of God to account for. Having that be done in this age seems about as probable as cows growing wings and playing banjos.
Thanks for starting the discussion today. I hear that often, about voting Democrat for the social services and aid. I wonder if the church did our job if that would be less of a need. Of course there are arguments here also, some saying the church could do more if taxes weren't so high and people could give more to the church. I think your "providence of God" comment would take care of those issues.