I am frequently asked about my thoughts on church discipline. I’ve learned that most of the time, when someone asks, they have a personal agenda they are attempting to address, far more than they have a concern for Biblical accuracy.
They may know someone who committed a specific sin they feel warrants discipline. Sometimes they were injured by someone and want to make sure the person is properly disciplined. They may even want to be a part of the “prayer” process…and they want details…so they can pray (and gossip) appropriately.
If it sounds like I have an angst against church discipline…maybe I do. It’s not that I’m against it. I do believe there is a place for church discipline. How can I not? The Bible addresses it. It’s just that most of the time when I’ve seen it spoken of it seems more like retribution than something Biblical. I’m against that! I think punishment was nailed to a cross.
- Should we being doing more church discipline? Yes
- Should we do it better? Yes
My bigger question would be as to the purpose of church discipline.
I’m a simple minded guy though. I’m not deep. I need thoughts I can wrap my mind around. So, I’m not attempting to give a scholarly reply to the subject, but simply add some of my thoughts. For some of them I give a general reference and for others it’s simply a thought, though each of them is based on my interpretation of Scripture as a whole and my view of God and His plan for mankind. I have often thought in terms of my role as an earthly father attempting to parent my children when I think of how God must think in terms of parenting me. Obviously He’s the perfect parent, but even Jesus alluded to the role of an earthly father in relation to our Heavenly Father. (Luke 11:9-12)
Here are 7 simple thoughts on Church Discipline:
Grace is primary in healthy discipline, not secondary. Throughout Scripture, God approached people with grace and unconditional love. Discipline should never be done in anger, but always in a redemptive way. (Romans 5:20)
The best discipline you will never know about. (Read Matthew 18) If discipline is handled correctly, the person is approached by someone, usually someone close to them, they repent and you move forward. In most cases, no one else needs to know at this point.
Discipline is part of the process of discipleship, not a side product. Healthy discipline is a part of helping others be more like Christ. You know of areas of sin in a person’s life, so you confront them in love, helping them grow and improve. (Proverbs 1:1-3; 6:23)
Discipline is done in an effort to restore, not to punish. Jesus took the punishment for our sins. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Proverbs 10:17; Romans 5:8)
It’s not limited to select sins. If you are doing disciplines as a part of discipleship, then you address known sins…period. It could be gossip…may even be gluttony or greed. (Matthew 5:21-28)
The only people doing church discipline perfectly are the perfect churches. They do discipleship perfectly, also. In fact, they’re pretty much perfect. (Or think they are. 🙂 )
It rarely involves people having to leave the church. I honestly think that’s what some people feel is the key objective. I don’t see it that way. I see it more restorative than dismissive. (Philemon)
I realize scholars can pick this apart. I welcome your input and healthy correction. Just do it in love please. I think that’s Biblical too!
What are your thoughts on church discipline?
I was thrown out of church along with my children and grandchildren cause I wouldn’t go to every group the pastor wanted me to and he started to bully me on everything I said and done, he would shout at me in his house etc etc and when I said I was gonna tell another couple in church he banned us from going to church he sent everyone except me a email saying they were no longer to have anything to do with use, they shunned me and my children in the streets this is still the same 5 yrs later yet my grandson is the pastors godson whom he also shunned, I now go to another church with one daughter but my other daughters refuse to go to any church or bring there children up has Christian anymore, they said if that’s how Christians behave they don’t want anymore to do with it, so my grandchildren all under the age of 8yrs don’t hear about christ anymore yet they use to like learning about him till all this happened. The pastor didn’t like woman questioning him on anything and will never have woman Christian leaders in his church. So I think church so called discipline turns people away from God and how many generations of my family will never know christ because of it I will never know. From jenny
How would you handle an abusive marriage where the husband’s anger is out of control and he puts on a good face no true repentance for his actions? There is no respect for his counselors/elders only a false front and blame shifting. I’m of the mind that 1 Corinthians 5 is to be in-acted in the interest of the church at large and the soul of the one committing the sin. The motive is all to love and restore the individual. We are called to help the oppressed and an abuser is manipulative and should not be allowed free access to other believers. An advocate and safety plan for the wife is critical and an accountability partner for the abuser as they go through counseling. Let’s not forget that sin spreads like leaven and destroys people’s lives.
It is very unfortunate but Church discipline is the most difficult thing to deal with in a body of believers. However, it is absolutely necessary.
I have personally been involved in 2 cases where church discipline was needed. Both cases were someone choosing to leave their spouse.The toughest thing I ever had to do as a believer was to go to the husband, who was also a friend and point out his sin. His response was not positive even though he knew he was in sin. He didn’t care. So the church had no choice according to Matt. 18:17 but to treat him as a publican and a tax collector. This means the church body withholds fellowship from this guy in order to get him to change his mind. He never did even though he knew he was in sin. The reason the unrepentant brother ( or sister) needs to be dealt with in this way is because the “leaven” needs to be put out of the body. That was Paul’s message in I Cor. 5. The Corinthian Church was tolerant of the man who had his father’s wife and Paul really jumps on them for being so tolerant instead of putting him out of their midst. It only takes a little sin to infect the whole church which is why discipline is so necessary in any church. I didn’t see Gal. 6:1 which says, “Brethren, even if a man be caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.” This verse has a good balance of love, humility but standing firm.
Thank you on your comment on discipline, for many years I was physical, emotion and sexual abuse, When I came to the Lord I didn’t know love or discipline from Adam. Not until I finally from a bible teaching preacher but got stuck thinking God left when he left. I am now in a church where the meat is tougher than the milk. I am having to learn what true discipline and behavior are from Pastor M. I don’t know how he made it with me these last few year and I tested him to the limit but thank God that Christ help me understand that he was discipline me using the bible and not abusing me. What he didn’t know he found some answers for me. I am grateful that I am finally understanding that I need this discipline to be whole in Christ. Learning to love and be discipline isn’t that easy for me. I look for the worst but I got the better.
‘It rarely involves pole having to leave the church’ ??
This sounds like someone could be asked to leave – that should never happen, … ever.
I have been traumatized by church discipline, but actually by pastors. Only God really knows why! My first time was because I didn’t marry the person they saw most fit for me, actually for his sake. In another church because I didn’t take part in a church outing for which we first said we would, because a couple needed our help with a building project and they had no help. Another time because we urged the believers to not take part in carnival but rather to offer something different for the kids. The whole church counsel came to my house and said I should consider if I fitted in with my reasoning. This was the most traumatic as I was new in Germany. I was close to a nervous break-down. In another because we did evangelistic gospel singing at the station. The station didn’t object but the eldership of the church did. Another because my husband and I were homeschooling our kids and bc it was against the law in Germany. In another, because I asked the pastor if I could start a gospel choir and then the music leadership said I was medling in another’s ministry. The last was the weirdest. In a church founding ministry with an American pastor, I faithfully did the children’s church from Sunday to Sunday for a whole year. Eventually, because the church moved into a bigger space other all of a sudden also volunteered. When we discussed the curriculum, I urged the people to stick to the bible with that age group, because a theological student had suggested that he wanted to discuss things like proving that God exists. Well, for this the pastor called me aside and said who I thought I was to suggest this to a theological student. This was the last straw and I have been without a church for one year. But I love reading my bible and we still have a bible study group. This all has made me distance myself from pastors and I find them attacking me so much that it seems like a curse to me already. Very weird. Fortunately, the Lord is especially gentle and beautiful in His dealings with me and through the years I have been able to soften against these attacks and to just walk away and take comfort in HIM.
I also believe discipline is supposed to be a form of discipleship.
We should not discipline to make known who is in authority but we should do it in love and humility to God.
Look at the woman caught in adultery and brought to our chief example Christ Jesus, how He approached the matter with the response of LOVE and told her I do not condemn you either, go your way and sin no more.
This is how we also aught to deal with the fellow man because we too are prone to sin even if we call ourselves pastors, prophets, elders or deacons or deaconesses etc.
Love is the principal thing and love draws us closer to God and if we discipline in love knowing that this same person Jesus died for him/her, and we need to take care of them by bringing them to the fold if they lose track of where they aught to be found.
I believe it is not our job to discipline anyone but to only love them, & if were experienced enough, give a parable on the subject, Jesus never disciplined anyone but only loved them even though, He is, the judge. We have no right to judge we’re all sinners, vengeance belongs to God
We are to pray in all things immediately & give it to God He will deal with it in His on way & His own time!
I am speaking on the last thought of church discipline and I need inputs on below queries. 1. When someone is disciplined and if they choose to leave the church. Does church need to try by every means to bring him back..
2. And in other case if any brother voluntarily leaves the church. Do we need to try to pull him back..
Good read. I do agree that church discipline is good, as long as it’s done properly and glorifying to God. With that said, I do have a question regarding church discipline. Say a church member is ‘accused’ of not keeping the 4th commandment (Keeping the Sabbath Day), because, according to the church elders, the member has not been attending “his/her” church which he is a member of and the elders do not know where the member is going (or if he/she is going at all), and therefore the member is labeled as sinning for not keeping the Sabbath Day and is under the first step of discipline, silent censure? Is that correct and proper church discipline? Does that member really need to inform the church where he/she is gong to attend or if he/she is going to be there at all? Is it not between him/her and God? Doesn’t it seem that the elders are judging the heart of the member, and is that not the Lord’s doing? Isn’t the silent censure also a form of punishment, and wasn’t punishment nailed on the cross?
Now, I’m just looking for some informative insight and knowledge here, and would appreciate any that someone is willing and loving enough to give. Also, let me know if you have any other comments or questions and I will be happy to address them the best I can.
God’s richest blessings!
-Dan
I agree with your very well-thought out article. God’s purpose is always our spiritual growth, not to make us pay for what we have done, so to speak. (Jesus already did that if we are saved.) Sin must be addressed for the good of the entire body, but always with the best interests of the sinner at heart as well.
You had some very relevant points. It should be done in love, but the person also has to be willing to repent and receive training and deliverance if necessary. If not and they continue the next steps must be taken. It is not God’s will that any should perish.
It is unfortunate but in “most” churches “church discipline” is not practiced. This statement is simply based on my experience. It’s very unfortunate that the “judge not lest he be judged” has taken such a hold as to paralyze churches. You are absolutely correct…the ONLY reasons for church discipline is for restoration and discipleship. I’ve been a member of churches where infidelity was allowed to continue while an individual was allowed to continue his “ministry”. I believe the lack of church discipline is a reason we have a challenge winning the lost. Most churches reflect the “world” more than they do “Jesus and His Word”.
There is a place for church discipline, Scripture gives us the blueprint for it. There’s things in churches now a days that should never. In the Corinthian book it was mentioned about a man sleeping with his father’s wife, but now there are things to that magnitude and greater, yes we are to approach one another if they don’t hear us take another if they don’t listen then take it to the church. We are our brothers keeper.
PS, Discipline and disciple are of the same origin, So maybe its best each one does his own research, study, meditation with the love of God in mind then pray about it im sure most conclusions will be the same. I mean nobody threw a stone at the prostitute, Yet these same probably went before Herod demanding crucifixion. Yes there should be self discipline knowing we are temples of the Holy Spirit, made in the image of God, and representatives of Christ. When we sin repent, confess and ask Gods forgiveness. How can man be judge in the middle of this I am still learning.
I think the word DISIPLINE, is very misused in modern days. Its Greek origins is to teach, not punish. The punish concept of the word comes from French a much more modern language. I often wonder how I will have to answer to God for the many punishing attitudes in thought and action ive had in my life, May God continue to have Love and mercy for us all.
I have been disciplined by 2 churches (on different things). the 1st lied to me rather than confront the issue. the 2nd called me aside and told me what I did wrong and my punishment was accordingly. I left the 1st church hurt and abused. the 2nd was out of love for me and others and I love them and still going.
I was in a situation at church where someone had money that they gave to someone, and the person who was given the money didn't pay it back. I was not what type of agreement was made. All I know is the person wanted them thrown out of the church because they didn't get their money back. I am a ordained minister and at that time I was just getting started. So didn't want to give wrong counsel, I was just an ear. The person ended up angry with our pastor and the person who they gave the money to. Now I will fast forward to 2015. This person was confronted about not taking care of home and reconciliation with his marriage. He complained that it was not done in love and eventually left our church. This is such a dangerous thing if a persons Biblical understanding is off. I enjoyed the teaching and am greatful for the Holy Spirit giving understanding.
I couldn't agree with you more. More churches have list more good people over discipline without the love of Jesus. Judgement instead of discipline. Thank you for addressing that.
Besides Faith, Hope & Love, I think respect and mutual support are equally important in church and the socieity. May the Almighty God give us peace and harmony.
Excellent info regarding church discipline. Restoring those who fall.
http://www.christfellowshipkc.org/files/position_…
I enjoyed the article but believe the matter is nowhere better explained than in Matthew 18:16-17 when understood in its context, and in consideration of the gospel message. Accordingly, should anyone wish to rebuke a brother or sister in Christ for sinning against him or her, and then follow on to any greater measures, i.e., church discipline, I would say that they must first consider the clear teaching set out in Matthew 18:15-17 by our Lord, IN THE LIGHT of the following context of our Lord's teachings in that same chapter. See Matthew 18:1-35. Here's the context, which is critical:
1. Christ begins his teaching on the subject of how one treats a fellow believer (who is but a child in the sight of God) by giving numerous dramatic warnings as to the DIRE consequences that await those who would offend a child of God (he is not talking about physical children here, but spiritual);
2. throughout these warnings Christ gives illustrations that are designed to show how utterly precious a child of God is to our loving Father;
3. Christ then provides an instruction in Matthew 18:15-17, you can see the instruction yourself, but you won't see it without the Spirit. The instruction which begins with an instruction taken from Lev. 19:17-18, then escalates to a measure that harkens us back to the Lex Talionis (eye for an eye) measure of Deuteronomy 19:15-21, (which measure is itself undone by Matthew 5:38-42 (resist not evil)), and ends with the offended "believer" shaming his "brother" before the whole congregation over a single sin, (which scene should remind the congregation of this OT scene in 2 Samuel 12:1-7), you will notice the instruction does not call for the church to treat the offending brother as a heathen and a publican, but rather that the offended party should do so (the church is not commanded to excommunicate the man);
4: immediately following this "what to do when a brother sins against you /church discipline" instruction, Chirst explains that what is bound (not forgiven, sin binds) and loosed (forgiven, forgiveness frees) on earth will similarly be bound (not forgiven) and loosed (forgiven) in heaven,
5: this is then followed by two passages, one which explains that when two believers agree (concord, unity, peace), on earth as touching anything and ask for it, our Father in heaven will grant it, (peace, concord, unity), and the other explaining that when two or more are gathered together in Christ's name, (who is our peace), Christ is in the midst of them (again the spirit of peace, reconciliation),
6. immediately following these explanations Peter (WHO GETS IT) asks Christ's (seemingly shocked) "how many times must I forgive my brother, 7 times?";To which Christ then answers Peter, not 7 times, but 7×70 times!; (they didn't have calculators back then so that's an indefinite number of times); and
7. Finally, our Lord's instruction ends with the parable of the good lord and the wicked servant, which also (and not coincidentally) has two servants and some witnesses (fellowservants), and which after the good lord tosses the wicked servant into a prison for not forgiving his fellowservant, ends with this statement: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if you from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
In light of the whole counsel of God, I think our Lord's teachings in Matthew 18 speak volumes about how we should go about treating one another. If we finally cap this all off by considering our Lord's explanation in another part of the gospel of Matthew (but also present in ch. 18:5-6) concerning how HE sees believers, i.e., that what one does (or does not do) to the least of his brethren they do to him, (Matthew 25:40, 45), the picture comes home to us in HD!
At bottom, we are brothers and sisters in Christ (fellowservants and fellow-forgiven-sinners) and should FORBEAR our sins against each other and only admonish one another privately (except for false teaching) out of love and for each others' good. See Proverbs 17:9; 25:15; Romans 2:4; 3:25; Colossians 3:13. As for church discipline, excepting scandalous sins and patent false teachers, we have a Father in heaven and if memory serves, our all wise Father does the disciplining in the house, doesn't He? See Hebrews 12:7-11; 1 Corinthians 11:29-31. So in sum, let us love one another dear brothers and sisters and keep ourselves from idols. Shalom.
Bingo!!! Way to go, well put.
I do have a thought on this. I know that discipline is in the Bible, and I know its necessary sometimes, but I'm against it. Period.
My feeling is that the more un-Godly an individual is, the more they need church. Simple as that.
The work of the church is not pretty. Its like dredging the bottom of a lake for the stinkiest, smelliest mud. Its gonna get you dirty, but thats the point…to reach out to sinners and tell them of the Word of God. My feeling is that discipline should amount to telling that person AGAIN! And AGAIN! And AGAIN! Individually and in small groups. Until the offender either decides to repent, or leave the church on their own.
I dont expect anyone to agree with me, thats just my opinion.
I feel you are absolutely correct in that discipline in the church should never be as a means of punishment.
Restoration of the individual should be the desired goal through our love of Jesus Christ.
Hi Ron ! I particularly enjoyed your piece on church discipline, as I have often been in need ot that kind of encouragement. Nothing serious, mind you, just a good metaphorical 'kick in the pants.' It often disappointed me that no one in the congregation seemed to care if I was at services or not. That really hurt. Thanks be to Our Lord the Holy Spirit got me good and straight. Never doubt the value of responsible discipline delivered in Love.
In HIm, John Grant
I think the points in "7 Thoughts on Church Discipline" were very good.
church discipline should be used as a means to demonstrate the love of God to those ensnared by the wiles of the devil (Romans 5:8).
I like this topic:
How would anyone deal with this situation? A leader, "pastor of the church" states that, "God sent him to the church to feed the sheep". However, he is sexing the sheep of the house and even sinners out in the public. His reputation is so outrageous that at the mention of his name people walked away. In confronted in love by the elder of the church, and then the chief intercessor, and then two other witness. He then affirm its missed information and considers the confronters as trouble makers and boast that no one can touch him. How does one deals with this issue.
The basic issue is 'what is the motivation'? In my many years with a couple of churches, I have seen this rarely done. Those times that it was done, the process was that an individual (or two) went to the person and explained the issue and how it was harmful to the person, their family, or the name of Christ. Regrettably, in those situations, the individuals continued in very obvious sin and made no attempts to change. Pastors and deacons met with the individual. Still no change. The individuals were removed from their lay-leadership positions and, by their own choice, left the church. The issue was handled with care and great care to keep private matters private (this was done with concern for the individuals' families as well as for new Christians). The matters ended as well as could be expected. All was done with love, care, grace and that the name of Christ not be smeared.
The title, "church discipline" does not, in my humble opinion refer in anyway, to the punishment for individuals. But rather the wrongs of the church body its self.. I am 72 yrs. old and I have seen a subtle transformation of preaching the word. Our preachers have spent more time on feel good messages, and less time on sinful behavior. I believe this is to maintain membership and tithing in a ever declining community. But instead of holding the line against sin, we are allowing the lines of true discipleship to be blurred. Our first example, on a national level is how we, as a nation failed our Lord on, "Roe-v-Wade. We do not take responsibility for our actions, we like to point fingers at others.
As a fellow disciple I have found that discipline is needed in the body of Christ. Since I have come to Christ in 1999 I have felt the rod of correction on many occasions. Each time I was urged to start over in the season I was in because I had missed something my Father was attempting to show me. When it became a little less uncomfortable was when I was brought to the end of myself and God spoke to me saying once again, it is time to start over because I had missed why Jesus died for "Me". It became personal then and I have kept it that way to the best of my ability. I have been on the receiving end of Matthew 18:15. And because of my past life I was left to myself by my family and friends. I'll say this though because of the prayers petitioned for me I was redeemed, restored, healed and set free. Is discipline needed, yes. To be ministered in love whether the person or persons are within the church or has chosen to walk away. Ultimately its our Father in heaven which will administer the discipline in His time and His way. As long as discipline is in accordance to the word of God the result will be for His Glory and will edify the body of Christ. Bringing those into repentance and forgiveness. I myself am very grateful for the discipline I received. Now I have a testimony and witness to the redeeming power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen
I absolutely agree with the 7 simple disciplinary ways of the church. Back when I was in my twenties I was disciplined by my church and I feel to this day that my pastor disciplined me in a very professional, appropriate manor. I'm a big believer in it should only be the leader of the church who does the disciplinary Acton and a witness who is someone close to the person who's being disciplined . That way there's little or no chance of GOSSIP. I'm sorry to say I agree with what was said about how some people want to see church discipline in a way of getting some kind of revenge, or to find something out so they can gossip about it.
I agree with your commentary. It is in love that Christian's are to carry out the Will of God. 1 Cor 13:13 says, "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."; without love you are as a "clanging cymbol" (1 Cor 13:1). God is a God of love and in all our humanity he loves us anyhow; so how can we ask for forgiveness and not be willing to forgive? Forgiveness is a bridge and in order to apporach God, we are to make amends with our brother (Mat 5:21-24). I know that this is not as easily done as it is spoken; because I struggle whith this daily asking for forgiveness. So every day we are to strive to goodness of God, being taught in discipline through the instruction of the Holy Spirit, directly or indirectly (spiritual leader, church, spiritual mentor, each other, etc.). For "love covers a multitude of sins" (1Ptr 4:8) and it is love that will see us through.
My thoughts are based on what I have learnt by reading God's word. We are to discipline in the church, but we are to do all things through love. My understanding is that we are to treat others as we would want to be treated if we were the one in the wrong. It is not a matter of punishment, but a matter of helping to return the brother or sister where they need to be in their walk with God.
Most comments have focused on what is done publically, in cases of egregious and undeniable sin. But the article and a few comments reflect the reality that most 'discipline' (as a part of 'discipling') is about less publicly seen sin patterns; and this is where all the cautions about restoration vs. punishment really come into play. It is essential that the local church body has a shared understanding of where and how discipline and discipling should intersect. This will help to diminish the 'hungry wolf'' effect on one side and the laissez-faire approach on the other. "I would always ask, have you loved them through it long enough to know their true heart?" This is a very good comment. You must have invested in a person, getting to know them (and their sins, and the pertinent history, as well as the positive aspects of their spiritual life), and prayed humbly for guidance, before you can begin to be involved in correcting them.
this was a great article thank you so much I am a young pastor and oftentimes have questions on how to discipline correctly this really sad light on my situation once again thank you
Well said. There are moments that discipline are meted out from the pulpit or remarks passed by the pastor which oftentimes reflect the immaturity or insecurities of his ministry due to even different interpretation of how one should pray and exercise of tongue and interpretation and such.
It happened to me and I had decided to leave the church for good.
But God is great and I was ministered by another visiting evangelist while attending another church to forgive.
Whatever it is through forgiveness we free ourselves the burden of having to bear the grudge and God will know how deal with every situation.
Thank you Steve.
I agree with you that the objective of disciple should be restorative.I witnessed a case where a youth learder was excommunicated and the pastor tired to prove to the church that,that was the right thing for the leardeship to do but what saddens me to date,is that the closest friend to the excomunicated leader also fell in sexual sin.My thoughts are,that the Holy Spirit should be involved fully,before anybody tries to discipline,because He undrestands the standard of God regarding discipline and can access and provide the best guidance that will ensure it ends up in restoration.In the case sited here,i believe there was alot that the Pastor and suporting leadership needed to dig into before taking the harsh action of excommunicating.I could be wrong,but the leader in question must have had the malpractise imparted onto alot of their friends who could just fall the same way which would not be the case if the Holy Spirit was fully involved.Thanks
Thank you for the input.
Several years ago my congregation was involved in what l would call restorative discipline. The couple had been excommunicated. They were married to other people, had an ongoing affair, divorced their spouses and married eachother. The church had excommunicated them years ago after failed attempts to stop them from leaving their spouses. Years later they approached our pastor in repentance. After worship one Sunday pastor asked everyone to remain for a brief meeting.
Pastor opened the meeting with a brief recital of the facts, then gave the couple opportunity to publicly repent. Which they did. Then the church lay leader stood and announced there would be a vote to see if the couple should be restored to the congregation.
Pastor again stood and reminded us of the proper use of the "ministry of the keys". He reminded us that one someone repents it is our duty and responsibility to forgive them. We cannot see into a person's heart and can only go by their actions and words. These two had stopped going to church for sometime, then began going to another church. They wanted to repent and had contacted their old spouses asking and receiving forgiveness. Then Pastor made an amazing announcement. Based on their actions and their words the only proper response based on the ministry of the keys was for us to vote restoration. Pastor told us that our vote would be binding and that he could not force us to vote correctly but that he would certainly counsel anyone who voted negatively. The congregation voted unanimously for restoration.
This may sound like pastor was heavy handed. He was not. Even a causal reading of scripture will indicate that when one repents they are to be forgiven. Pastor knew there were many in the church that day who had been hurt by this couples actions. They had been employed by the church before their affair and many felt betrayed. Pastor was taking the role of chief overseer and helping those who were still resentful to see this in spiritual light.
It was a good lesson in forgiving. One l will never forget!
Great story. Thanks so much for sharing
I have three times seen public church discipline acted out. Each time I was very impressed. One time, the person was a leader of a particular ministry connected with the church, and, after attempting to disciple and reconcile, the leadership came to the decision that it was necessary to cut ties with that person. The church chose to announce that publicly. It was done with as much grace as was possible, but it was necessary to put it out on the table. The person was abusing his position as a leader.
Another time, there was a public confession from a leader, the steps of restoration were spelled out. The relationship was not severed, though his position of leadership was put on hold until those steps were completed. It was successful and he was fully restored to his position.
The third time was a church member, not a leader, and the church was asked to not fellowship with the person in hopes that it would bring him to repentance. I do not know the result of this.
My biggest problem with church discipline is that, because of the lack of unity in the church, it could be very ineffective. If a church prayerfully decides that they need to discipline someone, all that person has to do is start attending the church across the street.
Everyone one of these comments has been addressing discipline FROM "leadership" to TO leaders, lay people, congregations, attendees, etc… not one has addressed pastoral abuse/tyranny.
Would child abuse or spousal abuse be tolerated in the world or in the Church? I think not, yet pastoral abuse is & it doesn't help when denominational structures/doctrines are in place to encourage the "We are God in the House & cannot be touched" mentality. Where is Church Discipline then? Regrettably absent. How many times do pastors have to be approached in love & grace extended before they are "removed"?
I know one church body where the pastors are consistently approached because of their dictatorship, yet they are unaccountable to anyone, continue in that behavior & people allow that! Many have left & were called rebellious, many remain & are miserable. Now they've created an atmosphere where they cannot be questioned or approached.
Accountability goes both ways, not just from the "top down". Discipline is for everyone who calls themselves a Believer, regardless of position or function, just as we are all called to submit one to another.
I hate to say it, but Church Discipline has become a myth & if it does exist, it's a joke.
Ron – Real Good Stuff. 😉
Really liked number 4 – “Discipline is done in an effort to restore, not to punish.”
Kinda like Gal 6:1-3, is a reminder to “Love” and “Restore.”
*Brethren,* if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye (ME???) which are spiritual, *restore such an one*
in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, *lest thou also be tempted.*
Bear ye (ME) one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
For if a man (ME) think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Seems the *test* here – is for “(ME),” the one who notices who is – “overtaken in a fault.”
Mat 18:15-17, can also be a reminder to “Love” and “Restore.” For (ME) to gain “thy (MY) brother.”
15 Moreover if “thy (MY) brother” shall trespass against *thee,* (ME)
go and tell him his fault between *thee* (ME) and him alone:
if he shall hear *thee,* (ME) thou hast gained “thy (MY) brother.”
16 But if he will not hear *thee,* (ME) then take with thee one or two more,
that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear
“the church,” **let him be unto *thee* (ME) as an heathen man and a publican.**
Again, the *test* is for “(ME).” The one who is “Trespassed against” to “Gain thy (MY) Brother.”
And it’s up to (ME) – NOT the Church – And NOT the Church Leaders…
To decide how (ME) will **let him be unto *thee* (ME) as an heathen man and a publican.**
The trespasser *is* “Thy (MY) brother.” Do I really take the term “brother”seriously today?
Do I even know, or care, who (MY) “brother” is? And NOT just the ones who “agree” with me?
How much grace and mercy, how much patience, would I show to MY flesh and blood “Brother?”
Would I give up on him so quickly? Would I ever NOT love him?
Seems to me – Jesus went out of His way – to spend time with – the heathens and publicans. Yes?
Jesus “Loved” the heathen and the publican. Died for them. Poured out His Blood for them. Yes?
I’m supposed to “go” into the highways and by-ways to reach out to the heathen and publican.
Maybe this means the process of preaching the Gospel can begin all over again?
Maybe we need to practice “Loving them?” NOT excommunicating them?
Maybe the real test is for those who desire to administer "Church Discipline?"
Maybe the real test is for (ME)?
Thank you. Good stuff
Church discipline!!! Interesting ahhh! True — Discipline is one of the important factors in anyone's success. When Church get into the responsibility of disciplining others, it would be good follow the below rationale:
— Discipline to endure hardship with us like a good soldier (2 Tim 2:3)
— Discipline to compete according to the rules like an athlete so that at the end the victor’s crown is received (2 Tim 2:5)
— Discipline to receive a share of the portion like a hardworking farmer (2 Tim 2:6)
When the ultimate objective of disciplining is to make others succeed and carried out with affirmation and positive spirit, it is bound to yield fruitful yield.
Great thoughts Uma
Twitter: imattchell
says:
This is execllent, Ron! Great work as always. I love your focus on grace.
Thanks
I would add that discipline should always be done quickly. When you find out about something, go directly to the source and deal with it. Don't wait and process or let the information filter through multiple people.
The longer you wait, the more difficult it is to lead with grace.
Good word Tony.
Twitter: kmac4him
says:
(Part Two)
It reminds me of that movie called First Knight! Where the King of Camelot got angry because he caught the queen and his 1st Knight kissing, so he called for an open tribunal which made the city vulnerable as he opened the city gates and the enemy was able to come in and take them hostage. The king realized what he had done but it was too late and he lost his life because of it. The people fought for Camelot and it survived. We also fought to be called to God 1st and for our youth and they survived and three years later we had a youth group 350 strong in discipleship and Jesus! But it still hurts and that pain still shapes me in Godliness, in learning how to make the right biblical decision, my 1st choice the right choice because the way you do things is the consequence you live with.
Thanks for sharing a personal aspect of this subject.
Twitter: kmac4him
says:
Church discipline! Ouch! It hurts! Even after 25 years later it still hurts! We had a youth pastor fall into sin with a youth leader. Both families destroyed. Our Senior pastor was angry, rightfully so, he discipled this pastor, but he took that anger and before the whole church disciplined that youth pastor, banned him from the fellowship. We lost over 50 youth and their families that day, we all loved our youth pastor, we grieved like no other, it still hurts because there was never reconciliation. Our next youth meeting we started over with 10 youth.
(Part One)
I think that it's a necessary part of church life, but is something that should be used sparingly and only after exhausting all other avenues.
I have only seen it used once in our church, but it was in a very public way. There was a couple who had been married for years with several children, all at least teenagers, who were very active in the church. And not just the mom and the dad, but the whole family. Most of this story is third-hand, so take it for what it is. There were marital difficulties with the couple. From what I can gather, it wasn't just him or her, but both of them not living up to the verses in Ephesians 5. The husband got tired of it and started an affair that evolved into a serious relationship leading to divorce. He was in a group of men, a group that I eventually joined because of my issues. This group of men did as much as they could to dissuade him for going down this path. The leadership of the church got involved as well, although I don't know that what and the where of those discussions. We tend to base our approach to most things on the Bible, so I will make the assumption they did that here as well.
Anyway, he decided not to do the right thing and followed through and divorced his wife and within a short time married the other woman. On a Sunday, after service, while the kids were in Sunday School, the pastor got up and went through as much of the story as he could letting the congregation know what was going on. The bottom line was that the man had left our church. He was welcome back at any time, but only if he sought reconciliation and counseling with the leadership (this was before he was remarried), and that the only contact we were to have with him should revolve around his coming back to the table and working to restore his marriage. It was a sad day as I knew this couple well, but felt that as a body we really had no other recourse.
Thanks for sharing Jon
Church discipline is sometimes used in our part of the country (far from TN) as a tool of the pastor to remove people who make him feel threatened. I have a friend who was told to leave a church because she disagreed on a tertiary issue and said so once. She was not causing division, but it made the pastor upset. She is still carries wounds from it and has nightmares over it.
Yes, my experience too…many times.
This story breaks my heart, and I weep for the young lady. Sounds like she is a victim of abuse, not church discipline. I know how she feels. There is no pain like it.
Twitter: SCJohnEd
says:
If you are simple minded the I have to verge on just plane DUMB, but… I think if we all concentrate on the sin in our own life and work toward Christ like love then the Holy Spirit will work in the church and there will be no need for disipline. God will take care of His children!
Thanks bro.
Love this. At a former church I attended here in Clarksville I saw this very issue dealt with HORRIBLY causing a huge division and needless embarrassment and shaming of the person involved. I also recently read something about a very popular church in the northwest and was just appalled that this could be a reality in our churches. My favorite part is your point that, hopefully, it isn't a public issue and can be resolved with love in private. WWJD people haha
Thanks Mandy
In reflecting on that moment, I developed a great respect for that pastor and his effort to stand on truth, but show love and grace to a couple who needed it so they could be restored to relational, emotional, and spiritual health. I also grew to respect the pastor even more because when people approached him to point out or "gossip" about other people's issues/sins… he would ask them if they have addressed it with the individual in question. If not… he requested that they do that "first" and not waste his, other people's, or the church's time.
(end of part 2) 🙂
Great illustration. Thank you. It points to the difficulty in this issue. It's not a simple, quick matter.
In all of my years attending church… amazingly, I have only seen this done (publicly before the church congregation) ONCE! And it just so happened to be the first time I visited that church. It was shocking, amazing, and sad all at once. However, instead of saying the church and pastor were wrong… I read Matthew 18 and reflected back on several comments the pastor made leading up to excommunicating the couple that got divorced. I learned that several different people had been working with both husband and wife for months to help them work through their respective challenges so they could be restored as individuals AND as a couple. Unfortunately, they had no desire to reconcile and instead of being honest, they tried to "secretly" get a divorce and move on.
(end of part 1)
This is something that I struggle with having been on the receiving end of being asked to leave a church.
At that point in time, I was young and it could have left a bad impression of church in general. But thanks to the other churches that I had been a part of or moved onto, I was able to overcome that impression. In fact, I longed, at one point, to attend that church again.
Too often I think the process of discipline gets out of whack. Like you said, many people just want to be involved for the juicy details, not to really help.
Yet when I get into Corinthians things seem to get pretty harsh. Take 1 Cor. 5:1-13 for example. It talks about expelling the believers who are living and boasting in sexual sin, greedy, etc.. It also says we shouldn't even eat with them. It states that we SHOULD judge those inside of the church, not outside.
This creates that internal struggle. When do I apply this scripture? How should I apply it?
My question in dealing with that passage is have you dealt with other passages also, such as Matthew 18 or Romans 2:4 (kindness of God leads to repentance) or John 4 and the woman at the well or John 8 and the woman caught in adultery, or Matthew 7 where Jesus taught on looking at the plank in our own eye. I realize the issue of in the church and outside the church being judged differently. As believers, we are judged by our fruits. I think, however, that the spirit with which it is dealt with is the same. We handle it in love, with a restorative purpose, and we work with the person to lovingly bring them to repentance. I would always ask, have you loved them through it long enough to know their true heart? I don't think every situation can be scripted ahead of time. You have to be dealing with a person's heart (1 Sam 16:7) as well as their actions.
That's a great point Ron. Something recently I noticed about the woman at the well and the adultrous woman was that Jesus followed up his statement of "You are forgiven" with another statement "Go and sin no more lest something worse befalls you."
One thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Corinthians scripture. I believe when Paul wrote that letter he had taught and corrected them multiple times. Given grace and forgiveness. And yet they still were living like "the world".
Our transformation from sinner to Christ follower doesn't happen overnight and I understand that. Boy do I understand that, especially working with young students.
The hardest thing is figuring out the proper place to draw the line…
Absolutely. You are right. I think my overall point was that discipline is not as easy as following a few verses. It's a delicate balance of grace and truth.
Twitter: kmac4him
says:
The question that comes to mind is it a "reaction" or a "response" Reaction usually is from our human condition and it is impulsive. Response is usually where you have taken time and worked out your anger. You are angry but you don't sin. If there is already a sin present and you react in anger, that is usually a douple dipping consequence. Not fun!
Good question.
Having been on the “receiving” end of discipline, I concur with everything you say here. Let me add the further comment — if you can’t do “perfect” discipline, don’t give up. As long as fallible people are involved, the discipline process itself will be fallible. Sure, work to make it ever better, striving for excellence, but let the grace work both ways – and know that good intentions mixed with very open dialog can make up for the human failings that are bound to happen.
I have also been on the receiving end of church discipline. I looked into the scriptures to see what they say. The person has to be permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit at Soul level. 1 Cor 12:3 says it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can say "Jesus is Lord". The Holy Spirit is the sign guaranteeing our inheritance into the kingdom of God, so when we die we will go to Heaven. It is the Holy Spirit that will convict of the truth being said. Scripture is clear [2Co 2:7 NIV] 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. When church discipline is done incorrectly, one can be overwhelmed with grief to the point of committing suicide. One exhorts an older person. I would brush the dirt off my feet if somebody rebukes me(65) and they are(25)Uhm!. That is what I went through. We were all believers but did not feel much grief over what was said.
Edlholcomb